Two-Time Leukemia Survivor Thomas Ashley on Life After Cancer

Before I was fully diagnosed, a nurse came in and said, okay, we've got to warn you, Tom, this could be cancer. I don't remember telling my mum, I don't want to die. Two-time leukemia survivor, motivational speaker, world traveler, author of Candid with Cancer, the undeniable Thomas Ashley. Welcome to Prayer Forum, my Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. What an introduction. That's the best I've ever had to honestly. Thank you. I mean, I'm lucky to me you could not be denied, but it's great to have you. You've traveled.

halfway really across the world to be in New York and I wish I could say that it was to come see me. Maybe part of it was. I think you definitely dabble that in there for sure. Gross place. That's definitely a reason for the New York Marathon to do what I'm doing. For sure. yeah, but come to see you is amazing. Awesome man. Well you're here, you know, look, as you mentioned for the marathon. Yeah. And I have to ask what's it been like man? You touched down in New York City to Big Apple. What's your kind of 48 hour impression? My pockets aren't as deep as I thought they were.

That's every the first one. You you take a breath of fresh air and there goes $5. Exactly. is extraordinary prices, but I've very fortunate to have been to New York before, so I knew how amazing it was. of course to be here now on my own when I'm older, different perspective of life is again incredible. It is a fantastic city. You can't deny it. Awesome. It definitely gets the...

was it a typical sort of city that you see on the films, New York, when you said coming in from the train from JFK, seeing all the suburban areas. I know I'm going to run through all of them, but seeing the typical houses and then people in basketball, football and all this stuff. So no, it's an amazing city to come see. And it's different than where you're from, right? So where are you from? Because sometimes I forget. What's the name of the place you're from? Stratford-upon-Avon. Stratford-upon-Avon. And man, that sounds so lovely. What's it like out there? Do you know what? It's one of those places. It is...

wonderful. is fabulous. I take it for granted because I grew up there my whole life. And it's in Hingesown I live in England, yeah, just south of Birmingham. It's where Shakespeare is from. If anyone knows their Shakespeare lore or anything. If anyone knows Shakespeare, it's quite a key figure in life, I guess, especially the English language. But it's where it's from. I take it for granted because I've brought it up there. But when I go away and I go traveling and see different parts of the world, it's so easy. You remember actually.

this place is amazing where I'm from. I'm so fortunate to be here. Until I'm back for about a week, two weeks, I'm ready to go again. But it is, is gorgeous. And around the area as well. I'm so close to London, to Birmingham, Cotswolds, the other than the rolling hills. And so it's, it's just a fabulous area. And it feels like to me, sounds like the pace of life is a little bit slower out there. I think so. I think it's hard to compare it. Like for me, if you're gonna compare New York to a pace of life would be London.

Like it is 24 seven, the New York City that never sleeps. And London, especially now is somewhat similar. You go to London, it is just constant doing things, but I'm out on the sticks a lot more. And then the pace of life, you can be busy. I've been very busy, but not to the point where I'm not sleeping or in the office on a Friday night till God knows what hour. For context.

Tom got in last, what'd you get, Thursday? Thursday. We were gonna grab a beer last night and he texted me at like nine or 10 o'clock, he said, you wanna get a beer? And I'm like, I wish I could, but I'm in the office. And it speaks to a broader thing, man, about New York City. I feel like everybody's hustling out here. I don't know if you noticed, but like on every street corner, someone's trying to sell you something, you go through Times Square, people are wearing costumes, trying to get you to give them money. I got on the subway the other day, there was a guy that was on the subway who had clearly just stolen like a swath of lipsticks from a local convenience store.

And he's like walking down the aisles. He's like, get your cosmetics here, prices. I'm like, I can't even get on the subway and go home. I know what you mean. I know what you mean. It is crazy. is a little bit different to England, I guess, or London. London the one I'll compare it to. Because if you go to the central London, let's say Pickley Circus, Leicester Square, you still get it, but still not as insane as here. Walking through Times Square, it's people with the coldest central signs, it's people with...

do this, people hop on hop off buses. It's a little bit intense, but I think people hustle there. It's just, think it's the way you hustle. People are hustling with different things. People are hustling the nine to five because they want to climb the corporate ladder. People are hustling in different ways, different places and different things. So it just depends where you are. And I definitely feel like changing this day and age, but the city life, people are working the nine to five. it is more hustle for the nine to five to climb up the corporate ladder compared to, like I I'll hustle, but not doing it on my own time.

It seems like that life isn't for you, right? Yeah. And I think you've come to that conclusion after, know, some life experiences that have changed that viewpoint. Maybe this is a good place to jump in real quick. You know, look, as I mentioned in the beginning, you're a two-time leukemia survivor. Can you talk about like, I mean, look, you were young and you get that diagnosis. What is that even like? One thing I always say when someone asks me about my diagnosis and leukemia and cancer, remember what it means is the one thing there isn't is a rule book.

No matter how many people have gone through it, there's not one thing per one person I can write that can be like, read this and you'll know everything about it. So to know what it's like for me just became the norm. What I was going through at the time was just normal. When I should have been in school, studying, living my life, becoming a teenager, being a nuisance, messing around, doing all that. I was in hospital being ill. And I say the toughest part was, was

All of it, to be honest. I can't just pinpoint one thing and say what it was like. It's, like I said, as a 15 year old, no one should be told you have cancer. No one should be told you could die. No one should be signing their life away at any age, let alone as a kid, as a teenager, just wanting to live their life, just wanting to go and see, just grow up a normal life.

following the brothers and sisters footsteps, following their friends footsteps, go and do all the stuff you should be doing as a 15 year old, learning, growing up, developing, going through puberty, all of this. So one thing I will always say with it though is, I would never wish on anyone as evil as I could ever be or someone could be. It's one thing I would never wish anyone to ever go through because it is just, it's cruel. It's a horrible thing to go through physically, mentally and the...

long lasting effects physically and mentally as well. Let's say I'm happy now, I'm fulfilled. You could say I'm doing what I want to do, but to get to this point. It's been difficult. It's been difficult, more than difficult. It's taken a lot of mental health side of it to get to this point where I realized, okay, I need to do something bad or I'm going to work on myself and then make sure I live the life I have, live it for everyone else who hasn't made it, be grateful for the life I've given because I know what people... or parents, mum and dad, brothers and sisters, auntie, uncles would do to have one last hug, one last kiss, one last I love you with their son or daughter, whoever it may be. So it's about taking that and telling that as a negative, telling that as a positive. So everything I do, every step I take in this marathon isn't just for me, an amazing achievement, but it's for those people who haven't made it, to carry on their legacy, to know that they haven't died in vain, their life wasn't in vain, and we can carry this on and hopefully save more people's lives going forward.

It's incredible, man. It's absolutely beautiful. You give me, you give me chills as you talk, you know, because I can only imagine what it's like to be 14, right? And to be faced with the fact that you may not be alive for much longer. How do you, in those moments where, you know, your friends are out playing football, hanging with friends and you're forced to go through treatment, how do you even cope in those times? I think coping is the wrong word there. You don't cope. You just got to get through it and that's what it is. And I'll be eternally grateful for my family and the support I had around me. I remember hearing for the first time I might have cancer when I was 15. It was before I was fully diagnosed, a nurse came in and said, okay, we've got to warn you, Tom. We're going to tell you worst case scenario, this could be cancer. And this is the first time I knew any of it. I was fit and healthy, extremely fit and healthy. Tom's lighted for a week, then just ill for a week. And then suddenly, okay, so no more. And for me, I'm a 15 year old, play hockey, I play football. This is field hockey, if you're asking.

Yeah, because here in the States, primarily have women's field. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not to take a comedic break, but did you do you have to wear a skirt in men's field? I mean, if they wanted me to, I wouldn't have minded. Exactly. Yeah. But I was fit and healthy, nothing wrong. I suddenly went two weeks. Boom, I've been being diagnosed. And the first time they told me, I'm a nurse, came into the room. My mom just told my mom, my mom was outside the room and was told to me, OK, Tom, we got to let you know that you could have cancer. And I remember just sitting there just, just nodding, just like, okay, okay, that's cool. And then when she went out, my mum walked in. That was the first time I broke down. I don't remember telling my mum, I don't want to die. Yeah. Then when I had a full diagnosis and they said, actually you do have it the day later when they did the checks, again, an army of nurses, army of doctors walked in and they told me you have cancer. And I remember sitting on the bed, they told me through this, this, this, I'm just like, okay, okay. My mum's next to me over there upset, crying, hearing all of it. And for me, it was more like, you know what, I've just got to sort of stay strong in this moment. I don't want to show my mom any weakness. Okay, this is just a path of diagnosis. Well, what an unbelievable mindset to have as a young person. It's a testament to your character that as a kid, you were like, man, if we're as bad as this looks for me, I had to be strong for others. Yeah, I guess so. And I think one thing I'll forever grateful for is of course the deadlock around me. But there wasn't a single day in hospital where I thought I was going to die.

There wasn't a single day where, know what, I'm going to perish today. This is, this is, this is the end. not once. There was days where I was ill. There's days where I wanted to give up in the sense that it was the pain I was going through, the chemotherapy, all of this. There was pains where mental health would creep in and be like, I wish I was in there seeing my friends doing things. But one thing I say with mental health aspects of it is I didn't have a chance to think about what's to come. I just had to.

because I was so focused on getting through each day and not saying I'm gonna die. I didn't have a chance to focus on my mental health, but we even wore it. But also I'm 15 at the time. I don't even know what mental health is at this point. But I think it's a privileged position for me to even ask you like, how do you cope? Because I think what that question implies is that like you had the brain space to actively worry about things. And I think maybe what I underestimated in that question is just like how much, how in your face something like this is. It takes over your whole life. You don't even have the luxury of being able to process. No, and it's something I didn't actually process until I was 22. Yeah. Even after the first diagnosis, the second diagnosis, stem cell transplant, I never knew the severity of it. Again, because just as was talking with my, like, someone else first diagnosed, he was just like, yeah, it's just, you what's a cancer diagnosis? What do you do? It's like, hey, let's through it. Yeah, exactly. There's nothing else I can do. I can't give up. So if give up, I'll die. So all I can do is get through it. What I can do is stay strong, get through each day, keep going through it.

One thing I do remember though is after my first diagnosis, I always said I would much rather die than relapse because of how awful it was, how terrible. And it's not something I regret saying. I remember telling my mum. It's something that I wanted to say because it's how I felt. didn't want to have to experience it again. again, I even struggle today to describe how awful it was. And I always want to say, unless you go through it yourself, you'll never know. Unless you're exactly in my shoes, you'll never know the pain that your body is going through.

Continuous chemotherapy that they're throwing up all the time being sick not be able to walk from be able to run around for 60 70 minutes to suddenly a disabled badger not be able to walk 15 meters unaided not to be able to have a shower sitting down wanting to pass out and all this all All of this is going on. I can't again how bad it was and Can I can I just ask you? To be to have to live and know that

Nobody can ever understand what that was like for you. Does that bring you Ajita knowing that nobody can ever know or are you past that point? I'm very grateful to be past that point now, but for years of my life, that's what destroyed me. That you wish that people could understand. I wish people could understand. And the reason I wish people could understand it is because I didn't understand. So when I would talk about it, when I would say out loud, I would get confused in my own head and then try to tell someone else would be like,

I don't understand this. How are you going to understand this? What's the point of me talking about it? So it's like catch me two full circle, it would come back into my head. So I would talk about it. And I also felt embarrassed about it. You think I've already gone through all of this. I've already gone through the first diagnosis, the second diagnosis, the stem cell transplant. I'm fit and healthy now. I don't have anything else. I don't want to burden people anymore. And so all these things, the depression, the anxiety that I did have afterwards and the PTSD, the main one survivor's guilt.

all hidden illnesses in the sense that why am I having these thoughts? Like what's going on? I've already been through the worst. I should be normal. should be living my life now going and making the most of it. But why does this keep coming back? Why is this even every time I try and try to get rid of it, try and run away from it is one thing I like to say a lot. And I write about, well, I try and run away. Why does it keep catching up with me? And then why is it worse? And then again and again and again. And that's something I really struggled with, with, with understanding it. I always had this thing.

It's hard to know, because didn't know what I was like before as a 15. I'm a teenager. I'm still growing up. Of So was always like, what would I be like before? If I had never had cancer, I've never had this, what would I be like? And I had those thoughts and would I be able to talk to people better? Would I be able to explain things better? Would I have just gone to university, gone to a degree, then just be working and blah, blah, blah. But one thing that I always struggled with was just speaking about it because I didn't know it myself. But I finally got over that hold aware. Now like, you know, I've written it down.

I've done the blog and that really helps me. But also I can, I can talk about it now. I'm not afraid to talk about it. And the people can't make, if people can't understand it, at least they can make sense of it. said they'll never know. They'll never know unless you truly go through it yourself, but you can make people make sense of it. And they can have that, whether it's a surface of, that terrible. Or if they do have a genuine interest and want to go to deeper of it. I've realized what the other is, is if people have a genuine interest, they'll make time for you. not, what's the answer? Yeah.

Well, look, one thing you noted before I cut you off, you know, you did say, you know, one thing you said is you'd rather be dead than relapse. Yeah. And you did relapse. Yeah. And you beat that shit again. Thank you. But I don't, you know, I don't want to underplay how horrific that must have been for you. And I am just curious, the second time around, you must have been devastated. It was worse than the first time. Yeah. 100 percent. The first time you didn't know what you're going in for.

You've suddenly first time I were from finding out I could have it on a Monday being to put out hospital on Tuesday to get the data and then rush over to another hospital by the Saturday morning after my chemotherapy. Everything changes in a week. The second time, like I said, I would much rather being dead than get it again because I just knew what I'd have to go through. And I just no matter how much you go through, no one can prepare you for that. And that's why I say this marathon is going to be easy because I've already been through.

which is about five or six miles. And for those that don't know, a marathon is 26. How have you been training for this marathon? And why are you confident that you'll be able to complete it given the fact that, you know, some people have run a thousand miles in preparation. Yeah. For me, I gave myself, I was traveling, I was in Southeast Asia. So I gave myself 12 weeks to train. I'm quite fit. I've been to the gym for two years. You look tremendous. Thank you so much. Thank you. That means a lot. That means a lot. Now say it back to me. Give me the affirmation. Come on.

So, so I was quite fit. I know I also knew for myself, if I was going to get myself like 20 weeks, I'd probably end up getting bored of just constantly training. want to go up and stuff. Exactly. Well, I'd much rather do that in what I ended up doing. But, after two weeks, after doing sort of three, four runs a week, just five Ks, six, seven, eight Ks, up to like, think nine K and then hill sprints and things about my training plan, my knee, my left knee, nothing serious. It's just my meniscus and my left knee went and.

have one hour, it was an eight week injury. So two weeks of running, then eight weeks off. And so the only thing I could do to train to keep at least give me some stamina was my cardiovascular system through cycling. So I spent countless hours cycling on a bike, in a room on my own, iPad on watching some TV or just singing some songs, banging on some songs just to pump me up and go through, keep my heart rate high and stuff. How many hours of like a day, like, you know, what's your longest session?

Before cycling, I think it was four hours. Okay. And on a spin bike. Yes. Sitting there. but I'd go do that two, three times a week. And then I do maybe, no, maybe four times a week. Depends. I'd have some hit ones in there. So I do an hour session at aerobic to conversate for not doing the hill sprints and stuff. And then some threshold training, all different types of ones. But then I would throw in some strength training as well. So nothing with weights and stuff, just calisthenics and full ups, ups, push ups, all of this. But I couldn't tell you how many hours I spent in that room.

just cycling and then things. But I think the reason I'm so confident that I'll do it is I have managed to get a 10K in the other day, hour and five minutes. So 6.3 miles and felt really good afterwards. I mean, by the way, and that's a great pace. You're moving your brain. Exactly. Exactly. And for me, I know your legs can give up at some point. I know I've got a cardiovascular, but I think the main one is just mentality. Well, that's what I wanted to get to. Like separate aside from the fitness aspect of this, why are you confident that like this is no, this is no, you know, no problem? I just think for me,

I know I just recently is why I'm doing it for myself of course, but also the legacy of other people and then doing it in honor of the people around here today. also what's, what's, what's a bit of pain for four hours? What's a bit of things? What have you been through? Exactly. can do four hours of pain, five hours of pain. That'll be, I'm sure my knees going to give up on me, but I'll just run through it. That'll be fine. but yeah, just the mentality. I'm not nervous. I'm not scared. I'm here for a good time. I'm here to live my life. I'm here to have fun. I said I was out drinking last night. Unbelievable. But yeah, I think at the end of the day,

We're all here to have a good time. I'm not going to win the marathon at the end of the day. I'll give it a good go. Hey, you never know. Imagine that. I turn the TV on. It's like, this man from the UK, Topaz Ashley, seems to be in front of the candidates. know. It's pretty much gliding past. But no, I think just, again, just have to say, I know if my legs are hurting, I'll just find that second win that I should be like, no, you can't. Dude, you've probably found...

7th, 8th, 9th, 10th gears in your life, right? You could find the second gear. Exactly. And I think I'll be the one on mile 20, when everyone's struggling, I'll be singing, I'll be cheering, I'll be going and shaking everyone's hand in the crowd, and all of this, fun. if I'm very big, if I see someone else down, I'll go pick them up. I'll go cheer them on, go motivate them, make sure they are, you can get through this and things like that. I just know I just have the confidence I'll just get through it. And I just know it's not going to be a problem. Like I said, I'm just going to turn up on the day.

And I love that none of this is fake. Like I can just tell them the way you're speaking. Like you are not nervous whatsoever. There's not one bit of nerves. And in fact, I think it's all excitement. I'm so excited to do it. never, again, for me, was positions that I never thought I'd be running a marathon, let alone the New York marathon. If you asked me when I was 15 or 17 or even a couple of years later, a rental health that I'd never do a marathon, I'd be like, no, hell no. So to be in this position and to be in a force of decision where I can come and run the marathon and

everyone says the greatest marathon you could probably run. And maybe even win it. Yeah, exactly. Why wouldn't you be excited? There's no point getting stressed out about it. I could have easily been upset about my knee and the training and be like, I can't, I'm not trained the way I want to train, but I'm not, I've trained the way I can train. I've done the best I can to train. So that's the thing. And as I hear the way you speak and the way your mindset has kind of shaped here, you know, forgive me this is an out of bounds question, but as you look back on your experience with leukemia,

Yeah. In some sick ways, there anything that you are grateful for in that experience that you carry with you today? I'll always say it. I'll never wish anyone to go through it. Never in a million years. Never wish I'm my worst enemy or anyone, but I wouldn't change it for the world because it's made me who I am today. Real world of it. Really, really. That's not one thing I look back on. I always used to think, I would change this and change this. I would never wish I went through it, but I would never change it because I wouldn't be here today. I wouldn't be here in New York. I wouldn't be here filming a podcast. I wouldn't have met you. Yeah, man. So you-

For me, it's just being grateful as cringy with the journey you're on, but just being grateful for where you have come from and things like, know, if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have the mindset at today. I wouldn't have the mindset of, worry, it's just amazing going and traveling. It's amazing seeing the world and you've got to live the life. But for me, the most important thing is cherishing the small things in life, cherishing those that you love around you, your mum, your dad, brothers and sisters, showing love to them, telling someone you love them, telling, complimenting people. Because that's what matters in life. It's not about these big eccentric things. It's the intrinsic.

mindset, the intrinsic things that happen in life that really mean the most. And you really start to learn that the older you get, all the different experiences you have. And that's what means the most to me is there's a relationship I have with friends and family and the people I meet and know I can look wholeheartedly and be fulfilled in life. No matter what I do, I'll find that there's going to be hard times, there's going to be good times, there's going to be times you're going to lose your mom and dad, they're going to die one day. You're going to be, you're going to get married one day or whatever it may be, a child, but to know that when those times do come, you are on a level, you are fulfilled no matter what, knowing that.

Let's say my mom and dad passed away or one of them did pass away one day or a brother and sister or a friend that I know and they know that I looked up to the nth degree and I showed that in every way possible. And that's what matters to me. That's what gives me fulfillment and that's what brings me joy. I see the whole world, but that's just a side quest. That's just things on the side when this is what really matters. It's amazing, man, because, you know, look, there are, and I'm not saying anything bad about, let's say, you know,

the circuit of motivational speakers that are around today and people that are into self-help. And I think there's a few well-known ones that I won't name and they've been through things, don't get me wrong, but I think it's so inspiring to sit across from you who really has been faced with insurmountable odds, has overcome them, but now has such a positive outlook and can say with full certainty that like, look, it is about the little things. Like this is not a facade. This is not meant to, I don't know, there is no commercial aspect of this for you. You are just saying, look,

I've seen the worst and I have a perspective on this that is very simple. Like it is about cherishing the ones you love, finding joy in the small moments. I need to do a better job at that. I get caught up in my life a lot of times and I have not been through anything nearly as bad as what you have, but like, you know, I find myself sometimes ungrateful, right? When I'm at my desk or when I'm bored, I'm like, man, this sucks. I'm miserable, but like I could do a much better job at that. I really could. I really think I'll settle on that is one of the things the Iowa says where it was

you can't compare yourself to me with what you beat you. Because at the end of the day, my worst is my worst, your worst is your worst, but they're on a level playing field because you don't know any different and I don't know any different. So you can say all that, but it's impossible to compare because again, this became my normal. My normal is this and your normal is that. And I think to be self-aware though and to realize, know, I can be more grateful. It's not the first step, it's second or third step to realize that. And then you do act upon it and you do it and think that's a difference.

I would personally say the way you come across and all the conversations we've had over the past year from when I first met you reached out on YouTube. Look, maybe it's worth it to tell the story quickly how we first met. We both pretty much started YouTube at the same time. We did. Posting videos. I started posting some gym videos first and just getting out there. And I started posting some, would say like a kind of authentic self-help concept that I no longer create, but somehow we found each other. I think it just both came up on our For You page. Yeah.

20 views each. Yeah, right. Mike started commenting on my YouTube videos and then I was like, okay, guys, some sound. Yup. Decided to reach out to him and say, I'd it to meet you. Thanks for commenting. We should have a call sometime. And literally from there, we ended up having a call every Sunday. I think we've had probably 30 calls. Yeah. We had a little break because I was traveling and you were busy, but then look where we are now. We've ended up back here. It's unbelievable, man. But I said, going back to that, that's how we met. That's what we came across. And I think that is testament to who you are as a person.

to realize that realizing this is the step and you do act upon it. the way I think there's so many people who are either blindsided and don't see it and don't want to, I mean, not even they're blindsided, don't want to admit it. And that's something I've done before. You don't want to face the truth and things, but no, you are a person and the way you talk, the way you handle yourself and everything going on in your life. I greatly appreciate you say that, man. No, you're welcome. And I want to take the time here to say, you said, look, it's important to cherish those you love and tell them you love them. I love you, man.

I really look up to you and I view you as a source of strength and I'm not just saying that. I don't know if I know anybody that's been through more than what you have actually. know, paired with the fact that you, especially today, everybody can see you have such a lust for life. Thank you. And it's infectious, so I really do. Thank you so much. I love you too much. Thanks, bro. This has been amazing. So I got to ask you, man, as you now carry this mindset with you, generally in your life. So we've got

Forever Forward (25:39.567)
Look, I've got my own things going on one end, but to some degree I have chosen the kind of career stick to it, nine to five, the corporate ladder. You have a different approach. What has informed that approach and what is it now given that you've dealt with these things and now you kind of want to move forwards at your own terms? I think for ages, I never knew before and in my diagnosis what I wanted to do in my life anyway. There was never a clear path. I want to go do this, go do this. It was all just go with school.

just sort of fall into maybe university and then fall into see what happens. that's what I did. But there's nothing wrong with that. know Mo, my people love that and there's nothing, the way you choose to live your life and do it is there's nothing wrong. There is no rule books. There's no one to tell you that's wrong or right because there isn't. You've got to live the life you want to live. But for me, after going through everything I've been through, I just realized that there's different things. didn't necessarily know at the time, but I couldn't figure it out at first. I didn't want to go into this, but I didn't know why at the time I didn't have the understanding.

until I sort of realized that this lust for life. I realized actually like there's so much more to life than just doing things that people want you to do. I want to go and do the things I want to do. And, and still for ages, I even maybe last year before I started YouTube and then putting myself out there doing my blog and the speaking and doing all this, I still was like, I, maybe I should just go get a night to five, maybe I should just go and do this and settle down and just, just so you know what. And that's safe option. people, the other option people, said it.

For some people, what's rewarding for them is, you know, let's go get this job. Let's have a family and my kids and that, and that's all I need. And that's all they want. And I guess I sort of had some outlet just doing it in a different way. I realized instead of sort of going after a career, sort of being like, I'm going to go get this job and climb this bit and go to it I want to be a CEO or do this or whatever it may be. I sort of found this purpose instead, this purpose of, know, if I can inspire someone, if I can empower someone, if I can teach one person not to give up.

and save one person's life, that's mission accomplished. No matter what money I earn in life, no matter what else happens in life, that's what's life about, surely. If I can just save one person's life, help one person, that's mission accomplished because that is the most rewarding, fulfilling thing I could ever do. And from there, what I decided is actually everything I do, whether it's the public speaking, the motivational speaking, the YouTube, writing my blog, working with charities, working with Cure Leukemia, trying to work with all of this, traveling the world.

All of them have a purpose that they can all inspire someone in a different way. Whereas they've been through what I've been through, been through something else, mental health, or just a small thing. They just want someone to kick them up the ass and then tell them, can't hate. Whatever it may be. I've realized if I follow those, those, those routes instead, it's all things I enjoy. All has the same purpose. And one day I know if I keep working it, it'll lead to a place where they'll pay for itself.

But intrinsically, the reward is so much more fulfilling than anything I could ever do rather than sitting behind a desk and doing things. And that's where it came from for me. That's where this mindset came from that I'm going to go do what I want to do. And at the end of the day, I'll hopefully make that pay and do it. But just the reward from that itself is, the most fulfilling thing. And then having that purpose of chasing create just really sort of like, okay, let's go do this and see what happens, see where it takes me. And then here I am now. If you told me a year ago, I'd be doing a podcast with you, talking to you in your...

your house. I wouldn't have believed it if I was doing them a year ago during the marathon. The people I've met along the way, you wouldn't believe it being in Asia traveling. I just wouldn't never, I've done it. you just took that thing to go do it. And I love it. just, I just wouldn't change. What I love is that it feels like you, you know, some people I think lead with the outcome, right? Like they are like, look, I want to make this much money. Let me reverse engineer how I get there. I feel like you set your intentions first and say, I trust.

that the outcome will arrive. Whatever that outcome is for you will come so long as you pursue your authentic existence. And I feel like it's a scary place to be when you are sort of walking blindly into a leap of faith, like me with this podcast. It's scary. I just keep putting one foot in front of the other, but I genuinely trust and believe that if I keep doing it, then it's going to lead to the life that I really ultimately want to have. I do enjoy it. It's that typical thing of saying,

The typical thing you've heard before, is genuinely about the journey, not the destination. And people say it's cliche, but I think it's true. True, because you can get to the destination, but then what's next? Right. You've got to enjoy the journey because that could be a huge, that could be 10 years of your life. And if you just skip that 10 years of life to get to the destination, that's 10 years of your life where you could have done so much more, so many memories, so many things that you've missed out on because you're too focused on one thing. Yes. You've got to enjoy every day. You've got to wake up every day and be like, you know, bad days, everyone has bad days. I still have bad days, but you've got to be grateful. I say yes to everything.

Because it's like, why not? What else have I got to lose? Why wouldn't I go and do this? Why wouldn't it? If it's just going to the pub with friends, I'd like, yeah, why wouldn't I do it on a random choose? I love that. Just because you just never know. You've got to go and live a life. What's the point sitting at home just watching TV? Because it's like, I'm just going to sit at home and watch TV anyway. Yeah. So you've got to enjoy every day and take it because you don't know. You can't change the past. The past happened. You can't change it. The future, you don't know what's going to happen. So what's going to be worrying about the future? You just don't know. So all you can do is be present because that is all you can That's really all you have at the moment. So enjoy.

who you have around you, what you're doing and then, and where you're going. And then like things like this, you could easily be like, I'm just doing this podcast until we go to this point, but you're enjoying having every conversation with everyone. You meet the idea of our cast and that's the difference. You're enjoying it. You're wanting to do it. And that's what makes it amazing. It's good to have mindset. And it's amazing. Like on that note, like this is such a treat for me. Like it is nice that people watch and I'm so grateful, but you know, it's amazing for me to be able to have these conversations and to have taken a leap of faith to where I can meet somebody like you. And I think, you know,

You mentioned that look, it can't just be about the destination because there's always a future destination, right? And it's always like, look, once you climb that mountain, you think you're going to be happy. And then there's another mountain and another mountain. And it's so true. I have real life experience with this because for me, with my corporate career, I always felt like, man, once I get this next promotion, this next job title, this next pay, I'm like, finally going to be happy. And then, you you work all year and then you get there and you're like happy for a day or two. And you're like, what did I waste all this year of noticing on that for?

when I could have been focusing on the present. And so again, I say that and it sounds cliche, but it's something I'm trying to actively work towards. Like let's try to be a little bit more happy about the journey I'm on versus trying to just, I don't know, drive to some outcome that will make you happy for six hours. And I think the thing as well is you're driving this outcome, it's sort of where anxiety comes from. It's what anxiety is in a way that you're worrying and you're thinking about the future of one that anxiety is you're worried about the worst case scenario, where in reality,

I always say if I had anxiety or have anxieties, flip on his head, think of a best case scenario and then towards that. And I think it's the same with this in the sense that you're worrying about the future and this destination, what's going to happen and what's going to happen next when actually there's a million different outcomes that you just don't know what could happen. Yeah. So instead of doing that, just focus on this. So you're saying just be it. You're even saying for those who deal with anxiety, which I am intimately familiar with anxiety. I, my whole life I've dealt with anxiety and I'm sure you have dealt with mental health challenges as well. That's an interesting strategy. Instead of worrying about the worst.

Forever Forward (32:49.327)
Assume and hope that it's, you know, my gosh, what if this is too good? Exactly. I always say just flip it on. It's easier said than done. Don't get it wrong. But flip on it. Think of best case scenario. Think of the best thing that could happen if you're going to do this and then just go after that. And then just drive it. And there's an additional step, I think, which is don't just think about it, but go chase. Go do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go, go, go actively seek it. But then also at the of the day, you feel what it's like at end of the day, being realistic, none of those scenarios you thought of are going to happen anyway. And that's what anxiety is.

So if you can flip on his head and think of the best case scenario, it's actually, hang on a second. Yeah. And even just a small things like go and talk to that girl. And then, and then like, you saw that girl and you're worried like, if I go and tell her, she looks like beautiful. Or if I go to tell her like this, and she's going to reject me at the end of the day, think of best case scenario. 100 % is you meet this gorgeous girl and you never know where it could lead a happy relationship, whatever it may be. Worst case scenario. She says, no, one bit of rejection. Move on.

You've lost nothing. You've lost nothing, you Jane Everett's I love that in the world. And that's just, if you can look at that one analogy and take that analogy into other ones, can add it to every single outlook. It kind of ties back to you saying yes to everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? I feel like you're not only saying yes to plans, but you're just saying yes to life. Yeah. And look, this is an interesting tie-in to your YouTube channel and kind of how you transition because you've been traveling a lot lately. You've been saying yes.

to life in a major way. You've taken quite a leap of faith. You've been solo traveling. Talk a bit about that, man. What's it like to be traveling the world at times by yourself, at times with your cousin, but just getting held there? Amazing. I always say it's a bit like Catch-22. It has been for me. It's like, I've always wanted to do it, but I've been way too scared to go. And I haven't wanted to go solo and do it. But then until you go solo and do it, you realize how amazing it is to want to do more solo. But to get to that point,

you've got to go solo, but you're too scared to go. So it's sort of like this catch me too, where it's like- Was there a moment that kicked you like, all right, I'm finally doing this? It was, I did a few last throughout the year. So I've been, I went to Italy on my own a little bit and was nervous and scared a little bit. So I did this, then then finally went, okay, let's go to Tenerife on my own and did that. And then got my own car and drove around. And it was like, yeah, this is like, this is amazing. Like being out your own, seeing this place, driving around this fabulous island on my own, amazing. And then the big one-

Forever Forward (35:09.539)
Well, we went to Krakow as well and met some amazing people there. And then the big one was like, okay, I've done these little small ones, but I'm ready to go further afield. I want to go do some more. And you went big. I went big. I had a little bit of spare time, a little bit of money saved up. I knew I was doing the marathon, but I also had like, did well training for five, six months. So I'd like three months to just like go and decided, you know what? I'm just going to do it. Just put that flight to Thailand, to Bangkok. there's, knew as soon as I put that flight,

there's no going back. So I just had to book that flight. Booked it a week before I went. Did you book a one way? Just a one way flight. And booked it and just went. And honestly, for me, my confidence has been growing a huge amount since I started doing everything. But if you go back to my first YouTube videos, my first ones, I was shy, I was nervous when traveling. I'll come back with, you just meet so many like-minded people, the people you want to meet. You see an amazing part of the world. The experience is incredible.

but it's the memories you make with the people you are with and seeing and like I said, it's so easy to be caught up in a bubble where you're from and stuff and then. I'm caught, I'm going to be out here. I'm caught up here. Yeah. I want to get out. And it's just amazing when you see more of the world and not just whether it's the people you meet, but then you see when I'm going through North Vietnam, the back of a motorbike and you see these families, these kids just playing in the water or to play with a wheel and having the best time of their life. And it's just like, is it the first time when I went traveling as well for

forever in my life where I woke up with no plans every day. didn't have a worry about what's happening the day, the next day. No worries what happened the night before or the day before. No worries what I'm going to do. I'd wake up usually with my cousin, we're here in the same room, be like, what should we do today? Just live federal day. And there'd be no worries at all for two months, three months. And it was just the best thing. just, my culture is just skyrocketed just to realize that actually, yeah, like there's nothing to lose. Like, Hey, I can drive my life in any way. Exactly. And it just.

And like I said, the people you meet as well, the memories, it's amazing seeing the place you see the landscapes, the scenery, amazing. You're also probably the tallest person in the entire country. Pretty much. Walking into a restaurant, squeaking. Exactly. But like I said, the things you see, but it is about the experiences. And again, it comes down to the place where it's a cherished life. It's the people you spend it with, the memories you make that you can remember. You can see a really cool mountain, a really cool landscape, but what's going to make you remember that is the time you spent there, the time you had fun, the people you meet.

Forever Forward (37:35.247)
And that's the best thing about it. And it just makes you want to go again. This thing of a travel bug really is true. I've wanted to travel for ages. I always have, but I was always too scared. And yeah, I was hit too. My mental health was never in the right place. So take the leap of faith and do it. And now there is like, yeah, I just want to go see more of the world. And I want to go see it in the way I want to see it. If people tell to go see it this way, I'll go see this way. No, I want do it my own way. I want do it the way I want to do it. Because why can't I? Because you can't. Exactly. I absolutely love that, You know, it reminds me of when I...

Look, I am not a world traveler. Let's play it that way. The places I've been are like the most commercial places, right? I've been to Barcelona, which was awesome. thought Barcelona is a fabulous, I've been there when I was younger. It's gorgeous. Wonderful. But it doesn't really change your perspective, I would say, on life in the same way that when like you were in Vietnam or Thailand, you saw, you know, poverty stricken areas and everybody was like elated to be alive. Yeah. That's, your perspective has not changed, you know, the same way when you stay at like a really nice hotel in Barcelona, you take an Uber to the racetrack for that one race.

You're sat in the, you know, the luxury, but it's just a different experience. But I did, you know, for what it's worth, my baby travel experience, you could say, is I went on a really impactful service trip down into the Appalachian mountains when I was teenager. A lot of kids from my area do this. But, you know, I really have to say I had not come across, especially in the U.S., an area that was so poverty stricken. And I didn't know the areas like that existed here in the United States. Especially the first world country.

Right country in the world supposedly supposedly. Yeah, but people were living in, you know, makeshift almost like shacks I mean, I think they purchased them as trailers, but they had decayed to the point where they were really shacks And I had never come across more genuine kind Happy joyful people in my entire life ones that don't have The social media their technology they're living they're fulfilled with what their life is at the moment totally doing it And then they are the most loving people the caring people the ones that would give

Though they have so little, we give them everything to make sure you're okay. And I don't just say that. Like that's really how they work. That's really how they work. And I think about that a lot. I was 15 or 14 or 15. I'm 28 years old now. And I think about that week in West Virginia, like a lot. I remember one of the families that we went down to help needed assistance building a deck. And that's another issue because we were like seven kids and a group leader who was somebody's parents had no idea how to do any of this stuff.

Forever Forward (39:55.777)
used YouTube videos and it's like a guide. And ultimately throughout the week we built this family a deck and they were so gracious. But you know, one of the funny stories from that trip was they had a son and his name is Preston. He was like five years old and the whole week he was asking me if him and I could build a bird house. And so I'm like, dude, I don't even know how to use a hammer and a saw, but over the week I'm getting better with my tools. And so ultimately Preston and I put together.

I mean it didn't even look like a birdhouse. It was like a mangled mess of wood and screws with like a little opening in the front and he had written his name on it. It said like Preston's Birdhouse in crayon. And I remember when it was all done, I tried to like polish it and stain it and make it look really nice to show him on the last day. And I was really nervous because I was like, man, you know, I'm going to show this kid his birdhouse. And it literally looks so bad. know, that looks more like a bird's grave than a birdhouse.

And I showed it to him and I will never forget to look at his face, man. He said, this is the best burnt house I've ever seen. And you know, like as I think about that story and I've told this one before, like, I think in a lot of ways it's almost like a story about a lot of our lives. Like I think in some ways we're all broken boards and crooked screws and put together in our own ways. And to see him look at it like that, I'm like, Hey man, like, you know, my life is special too, even though it's all fucked up.

Yeah, and your life is amazing too, even though you dealt with some messed up shit. We're all unique, aren't we? We're all unique. Everyone has a different story to tell. 100 % and I guess that's part of the part of the reason why I want to start this podcast is like I want to start showing these broken birdhouses to the world. Exactly. You can't judge people and you can't judge people who they are because everyone is so lay, so many layers to some to everyone. Yeah. And it is incredible. And I've got a similar story when I was very fortunate to travel to Ecuador to volunteer when I was 16 with my school. Nice. And just for four weeks.

just worked in the Amazon in different rainforests, rainforest there, the mountains just building schools for the most deprived kids. so- Toilet, sleep doctors, and stuff. that's a real deal, Yeah, but it was the greatest trip I've ever been on, it's where I initially was like, yeah, let's go see the world more. But the experience and seeing these kids, how happy they were playing football, we had a game where all those gringos- That's the guy? That's the coolest, played against them.

all the kids in a football game and things. And it's just the most rewarding experience in the world and seeing it. I said, how grateful they all are. They don't need these phones. They don't need all this technology. They don't need all this money. They're just grateful that you're there, you're coming to give them time. They're grateful for what they do have. But it was just, it just the most rewarding thing. And just being there as well, playing with the kids and and and then they come up to you. They're so excited to see you each morning and hold and try and help you out when you're working. And I got pictures of me.

with wheelbarrows full of kids pushing around a school and stuff. that's where my initial bug came from to do travel. also, I just realized that, there is so much out in this world to go see and how amazing it is. These people are so little. They're the most fulfilled people you'll ever meet in the world. Completely. And again, all out myself. I've probably lost some of that presence and gratitude along the way as I've shifted my focus to my career and just like...

Conversations like these are reminding me how important it is to not lose that mindset that I had at the time and to continue to cultivate presence because you know, think it's easy to get caught up in daily life and for as much as I'd love to say that I'm like this present, you know, righteous person. I'm not I'm flawed. You know on some days. Yeah, I'm miserable. I do it as well. I still this but I can I still I know I don't happen to admit I still get caught up. I still in my floors. I still get caught up in daily life. Yeah, and and it's inevitable but I think when we read this

Like I said before, you said it as well, realizing that is the first step and be like, okay, yeah, I'm going to realize that. That was a sad day, bad couple of days, but at least you know then to act on it as long as if you're doing it every day and things you can look at. Bad day today. I didn't give you that time. You don't have to feel sorry for yourself to be like, I've had a bad day on, I've done this. I have days where I do absolutely nothing. poor. should have done something today, but who cares? Yeah, think. Properly. So I had to, just have to ask a few questions in closing. So I'm curious as you arrived in New York city, other than the prices here.

Is there any culture shock or no, it's fairly what you're used to. I maybe what I'm used to a little bit, but I think the difference is because it's such a multicultural city. If anything, you don't get that authentic American experience or whatever that may be. Let's say I went to a deep South state or even upstate New York or somewhere a little bit different where you get the more authentic.

suburban and inter- It's exact two areas I was going to say, either go upstate or go down like, you Georgia. Yeah. If you want the authentic. So I think, yeah. So think it's been a bit different than that because it is the, what the title is about it. It's all just tourists. No, no one's from here. So you do, you do like that. And I haven't really, I'm very good at meeting people. put myself out there and talk to people. It is similar to London. It's so hard to meet people in New York.

I've had a few people that I was talking to and met some people, again, not American, I an Irish gentleman yesterday, he was lovely, but it is definitely harder to meet people and put yourself out there. So the cultural experience is tough because it's, think, like you said with Barcelona, know, like you, you're, I'm saying in a hotel. And then getting, it's a very cultural experience. Yeah. So you don't, you're not getting the authentic.

New York experience, let's say if I went out maybe even to one of the island, Brooklyn, Halloween, something like that and see it. Where these people have lived there for like 50 years. Exactly. they have that everyone knows each other in their little neighborhood and in the borough and gets all the things. no, but again, it's you don't necessarily come to New York for that experience. Do you come from New York to see the skyscrapers? Exactly. To experience the melting. The city that never sleeps. And they don't. And there's people that also live there.

And they take every dollar you have against your will. And I guess look, maybe closing, you're such an amazing human being and I think you have so much to share, but if you could sum it up in a few sentences, like what's the lesson here from what you've gone through? What's your outlook? What's your advice for anybody then? You know, it's really just going through life. Yeah. I think there's so much that I still have to learn. It could be learned and I'm grateful for what I have learned, but when I said outlook on life.

It has totally changed from what I've been through from my second, my first diagnosis to my second diagnosis, the survivor's guilt. When I promised this guy, a friend of Michael's Sanjay that, you know what, you're going to get through this. And I promised him and a year later I got through it and he passed away. I had to live with that and feeling like I promised this guy, poor Sanjay, that he's going to get through this. I got through it and he didn't. Why is that fair? Why am I living with this guilt? Why, why am I alive and he's not?

who decides that? When I lost my granny, suddenly my biggest fear was working it one day and getting a call that someone you love has passed away before I realized what cherishing life meant and what really I valued in life and that is loving people around you and showing them that you loved them. I lived with my granny and my biggest fear came true. I wrote that down 10 days before it happened and then it came true and that killed me. So for me, as my sort

biggest thing to take away, I guess, or what I learned the most is, is, and I've said it already, but just really cherish life. made the most of it. Really, really value what you do have around you. So just constantly chasing and thinking you want the next thing and whatever it is, really appreciate what you have in front of you. Really made the most of it physically and mentally, whether that going to the gym for your body, whether that's working, looking after your mental health, whether that is relationships, whether it is that person, that that girl that

that you really do like and you know what you really do love her. Go and show her. Go and appreciate them. Go and tell your mum and dad you love them. Go and give them a hug. Tell your brothers and sisters. If your friends say you want to go do this thing instead of being like, I can't bother because I'm blah, blah, go and do it. Go and have fun because that's what is important in life. You got to make the most of life. And it's something I always say my friends did, but you can always earn money, but you can never buy back time. That's one thing I always say because you can. I'd much rather. I'm one thing I always always, always.

Let's say I'm going to die at 30, 35. You never know it could happen. This life could happen to anyone. Would you rather have a million pound in the bank or a million life experiences? Because you come in the world for nothing and you leave with nothing. So what's point taking a million pounds with you to the grave? You must rather take a million life experiences and know that everyone around you loves you and you love them. Well, I feel like you're saying this directly to me, honestly, because I, you know, I get caught a lot and I need this. I need to hear this.

because I'm somebody that's actively trying to be more present and not take for granted the incredible things I have. My incredible girlfriend, friendships like this one, this beautiful place we're sat in right now. And it's hard when sometimes you're chasing and chasing and chasing and I'm a victim of the chase. But I deeply appreciate our friendship because you remind me that it's not about the chase. It's about the journey. And so.

for that reason. I just want to thank you so much for coming on. It's been an absolute pleasure. can't wait to watch you run the race tomorrow. Hopefully you're not in shambles by the end the I'd like to be in the Will Barrow. I'll be in the Barrow. I'll really... Exactly. But thank you so much for having me. I'd love to come back any time. I could talk for England. could talk for... I've so much... If more about the cancer diagnosis, more about what I've been through, more about mental health, more about anything, I'd always be more than welcome to come talk to you, talk about it. And if anyone wants to know, just let us know.

On the set. And for what it's worth, do you want to quickly put your, maybe your social medias or anything you want to reference at the end? I guess, yeah, just Thomas Ashley. So Instagram, Thomas Ashley, YouTube, Thomas Ashley, and should just come up. Like I said, depends what you're in for. That's all types of stuff. My blog, Candid with Cancer, if you're more interested in about the cancer diagnosis and what I went through. But you've written extensively. I've written extensively. I mean, again, each year, each day, there's by this more, I could write, maybe I'll start writing again one day, but it's all out there. I'll put it.

somewhere, you'll find it. You'll find it. yeah, but thank you so much for having me. This has been amazing. Thanks, brother. Hopefully do this again. Very soon. Very, very soon.